
- With Mayo Clinic certified nurse-midwife
Mary Murry, R.N., C.N.M.
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Mary Murry, R.N., C.N.M.
Mary Murry, R.N., C.N.M.
Mary Murry is a nurse-midwife practitioner who is certified by the American College of Nurse-Midwives.
A Cincinnati native, she is a nurse-midwife and instructor of obstetrics and gynecology in the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn.
Mary has been a nurse-midwife practitioner for more than 20 years. She co-edited the Mayo Clinic Guide to a Healthy Pregnancy.
Her research interests include adult female survivors of sexual abuse, women's perception of pain in labor and obesity in pregnancy.
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March 12, 2008
Miscarriage brings silent anguish
By Mary Murry, R.N., C.N.M.
Almost 25 percent of all pregnancies are lost to miscarriage, for many reasons. I'm not going to go through them here. What I want to talk about is what happens to those 25 out of 100 women who lose their baby.
When we discover that we are pregnant, we don't think of zygotes, embryos or fetuses. We think of babies. We think of sons and daughters. We start planning the minute we know we're pregnant. So when a woman miscarries she loses a baby. It doesn't matter if she is 7 weeks or 15 weeks.
The feeling of loss is real and it is painful. Some women feel guilty. If they hadn't done this or that the baby wouldn't have died. Maybe they weren't real excited when they first found out, but became accustomed and more positive. She can feel that it is punishment for her initial negative feeling. We need to let go of that guilt.
Whether or not the pregnancy is going to make it is determined in many ways the minute the sperm and egg unite. There is little a woman can do to cause a miscarriage. It happens because it was meant to. That doesn't make the pain any less.
People will often say things that are hurtful without meaning to. "Thank goodness you weren't further along." "You're young, you can have another." Things to that effect. Then there are the people who won't talk to you about it because they don't know what to say. You know women who are due when you would be due. You see baby clothes you would have bought. Your due date comes and you cry through the whole day, in private, in silence.
It is only after you have a miscarriage that you find out how many other women have suffered a miscarriage. We just don't talk about it with anyone. This is when the silence can end. These women know your sorrow, your loss. Talk to women who know your sorrow and loss, and share your feelings. You can do it here, or on other sites just for women who have lost babies. You will find a community of women who understand.
161 comments posted
October 15, 2008 10:11 p.m.
I find much comfort in all of your posts.. Thank you for making me feel like I am not alone. It has been a few days since I had a miscarriage. It was our first pregnancy & we were overjoyed - we told everyone. Now I relive the experience each time the phone rings & I must tell everyone I am ok - even though I am not. I don't think I have ever felt this kind of emotional pain before - EVER. I feel like a failure. I fear getting pregnant again although I do so desperately want a child. Two people in my family are pregnant as well (we were only a few weeks apart) and I just don't know how I am going to deal with that.... I love them and am still so excited for their families but I just can't help to feel - WHY ME?! Although I miscarried early (7 weeks) I already felt connected to this child & was so looking forward in the holidays. Now I just feel so empty and hopeless. I know I will be ok one day and I am still hopefull for the next time. But every time I go to the bathroom I am reminded of what happened a few days ago... I wish the bleeding would stop. My thanks again for allowing me to share my heartache & find comfort in your stories. All my best.
- Kim
October 14, 2008 12:13 a.m.
I am 29 and just started trying to have a family. I went in for my annual physical and went out knowing that I was pregnant. I was thrilled and shocked all in one. I came home with my positive pregnancy test and wrote a note to my husband from "Your wee one" I still have both. Over the weekend I started bleeding horribly. On Sunday I went to the ER to get things checked out. I came out of ER with the possibility of falling into the 0.1-0.5% of the population with a bicornuated uterus (heart shaped) as well as a blighted ovum (no embryo). That was a shock to say the least. Of course I was excited from the get-go and told everyone about the baby since it was our first. Now... I am having to inform everyone that I had a miscarriage. This is tough. The doctor warned me that this could happen, and that I should refrain from telling anybody, but when you are excited, you don't think miscarriage will happen to you. It did. It seems like more than 25% of the population has to suffer through this like we all do. It is hard, but thank you for writing and sharing your own personal stories.
- Kristi
October 3, 2008 2:40 p.m.
Ladies I must say thank you for being so open about your experiences. I am 33 yrs old and this is my third miscarriage... I went to the OB/GYN clinic on Monday where they sadly informed me and my husband that my pregnancy is not gonna make it. I was 8 wks at that point. And this was gonna be our first child. We just celebrated our first year wedding anniversary and were so excited about Baby Baubles. Now I dont know what and how to feel right now. The nurse from the clinic called me two days ago and told me that my blood count is still doubling. So I have to go in for another ultrasound on Monday. As far as we were told, they got no heartbeat on monday yet they are telling me my bloodcount is still doubling as if there is a possibility my baby could still be alive; they then went on to tell me not to get my hopes up because it may not mean anything. I feel that my baby is gone. My breast and stomach have deflated and I am in horrible pain. The doctor told me that I will pass my baby naturally but if my baby is dead, I just want them to give me something to speed up the process. This hurts so bad and I feel less than a woman. I don't know what to do right now cause I'm crushed. Don't know how to face my co-workers or family members who knew about the baby....I am just devastated and don't want to even try to have kids again for fear of being let down again. Yet in my heart I want kids so desperately.
- Shay
October 1, 2008 5:37 p.m.
Bitty was the name my husband gave to our second conception soon after we learned the happy news of our very much wanted second baby to be. I wrapped the faintly positive test in a white box with pink and blue ribbon and gave it to him Father's Day. Bitty had a song. It goes like this, "He gave me you...He gave me you...Opened up the Heavens, Angels brought you through..." I knew I was pregnant immediately, long before I could even take the early detection test. My breasts swelled and were covered with blue blood vessels. I even had a belly right away. BUT, my appetite was huge. Opposite of what had been with my daugher. I had no aversions. I figured it was just "a different pregnancy," or a boy. My mother is close to me. She was visiting and attended my first ultrasound with me and my husband. The technician was friendly at first, telling us she'd detected her sister's twins. Then, as she got to work, she was silent and stone faced. We all knew something wasn't right, but we didn't ask. She got up, said she'd be back after my films were read, and returned 20 minutes later with a box of tissues and my doctor on the phone. We scheduled a D and C the next day after a night of intense crying. Before my mother left to return to Texas, I asked her to take with her the ultrasound picture that I had requested from the doctor. I didn't want to ruminate too much. Of course I wonder if it was the caffeine, the lifting, you know, but I am a Christi
- Laurel
September 26, 2008 12:05 p.m.
I am 38 and since January 2007 have had 3 miscarriages. The last one was 2 months ago. I already have 2 beautiful children, whom I adore, but can't stop feeling almost desperate for another child (I joke with my husband that I would love to have twins!). I am obsessed with understanding why these miscarriages occurred. Other than having sustained high levels of stress, mostly from my job, for the past 3 or so years (could this be a factor?), I feel I'm a very healthy person. And so far, the basic tests have shown the same. My Dr. does not think I should try to get pregnant anymore (at least until/unless I find some answers). Also, my husband doesn't want to try any longer, and I don't blame him, but I'm not ready to accept that this is the end. The hardest thing about this is that 2 of my best friends in the world - my sister and sister-in-law, both have new babies. My sister-in-laws' baby was born 2 weeks after mine was due. I'm supposed to go celebrate her 1st birthday with them tonight. Now, even though I love my family and their babies so much, I find it almost too painful to be around them. It's good to read your stories and know I'm not alone. I hope every one of you (and I) eventually have a success story to share. Maybe I'm too stubborn, but I just can't give up for any of us.
- Leslie
September 25, 2008 10:36 a.m.
I know I'm not alone, but it certainly dosen't make me feel better. I'm 37, we've been trying for 4years. I had 3 miscarriages (5wks and 7wks). I should be 8wks now but after ultrasound yesterday I learned that I have an empty gestational sac. There is no baby. I had been put on progesterone about 4 weeks ago and I had high hopes. I kept it together until we got on the elevator. Then we stopped on every floor. One stop we picked up a young mom and her infant daughter. I wanted the earth to swallow me up. My dr thinks the miscarriage should happen within 2 weeks. The last time this happened I took the medication to expidite the process. I don't think I can take that pain again. I'm not giving up. WE should not give up. I'm not feeling sorry for myself and neither should you. We need to stay focused but not become obsessed. I'll keep you all in my prayers.
- No name given
September 19, 2008 9:10 p.m.
I lost my sweetheart somewhere between the 18th and 20th week. I had a dr. visit on the 18th week 6th day and there was a heart beat. On my 20th week (June 14,2007) there was no heart beat. They called it a "missed miscarriage". I've had every test known to man and everything has come back "normal."No Answers... All this technology and i have no answers, no baby, and no assurances that this will not happen again. It's been absolutely devestating. Sometimes I just want to lay on the floor and just sob. My husband and I have decided to try again. Even though I'm scared I want children so I will try again. It's definetly a comfort to hear everyones story and that many have gone on to have more children. Keep the Hope and Faith. May God Bless all of us and our sweet babies... All my love Yvette
- Yvette
September 18, 2008 11:00 p.m.
I am 29 years old and this was my first pregnancy. I miscarried at home about a week ago at 13 weeks. I began spotting the week before. The doctors told me that was a normal occurance. The miscarriage happened so fast with no other warning signs. The doctors are puzzled. I was in the office one week before with a healthy heartbeat and then all of a sudden, I gave birth. Thankfully, they have decided to run blood tests on me next month and they are also testing my baby this week to see if they can figure out what went wrong. I feel the same way someone else did in a previous post. Our pregnancy happened so easily, the first try. I feel guilty for thinking it was so easy. I have such a fear right now that I am never going to be able to carry a baby to full term. No matter how many success stories I hear, I feel better for a little while, then the negative thoughts come back. The unknown is so scary. I feel so empty right now. It's hard to believe that I am not pregnant anymore and I will never get to hold my baby. It hurts so bad to see other women who are pregnant, due around the same time as I was. I try to tell myself to be happy for them, but I am still somewhat resentful and I hate feeling this way. It is nice to hear other stories and to know that I am not alone. Family and friends try to cheer me up, but people who are going through this very same thing now help me more than anything. I want to thank everyone for the stories and good luck in the future.
- Mary
September 17, 2008 11:42 a.m.
I... I am a doctor. And I can't tell you how much reading your stories has touched me. First and foremost, my husband and I have been trying to conceive for over a year and having lived in first person what it's like to desire a child so much the 14 days between ovulation and menses seem like 14 years, I can truly begin to understand what an incredibly big loss a miscarriage is. We've been "tricked" into thinking we're pregnant twice, only to find out 2 or 3 days later it was not so (very, very early miscarriages, quite possibly), but the point is the loss is devastating. In med school you learn about this 25% of pregnancies Miss Murry mentions, see miscarriages at the hospital, attend these patients and never, on the least of levels, get to comprehend or understand what it means to these women. To you. I used to say (and many drs say it), "But, hey, it happens to 25% of pregnancies, it's common, it's nature's way of avoinding longer lasting pains for all the family, it's normal, another pregnancy will come, come on!"... I only thought this before, never ever said it, but please, if you give me the chance, let me ask for your forgiveness and pray all doctors/nurses/health professionals/insurance people/etc. seek to understand. Pray it never happens to them.
- Maria
September 10, 2008 9:36 p.m.
I miscarried over the weekend at 11 weeks. I feel so awful! it was an unexpected pregnancy, so at first I wasn't exactly thrilled. but at my first OB appointment, we got an ultrasound, and I really started to get excited. My husband was of course ecstatic. we already have 2 children, 12 and 5 yrs. My baby was kicking, and had a really strong heartbeat. Three days later, I had light bleeding. The drs checked everything out, and said that I was fine, and to just take it easy. We got another ultra sound, and the baby was kicking, and the heartbeat again, was strong. I felt relieved. The next day, I started bleeding again, and the instant I stepped into the er, I started to miscarry. I feel so guilty for not being very excited at the beginning. I almost feel as if I am being punished. It is difficult to imagine that just the day before, my baby was fine! I have so many emotions right now, I don't know which way is up. I got my blood checked today. Won't know what's next until tomorrow
- Stacey
September 7, 2008 9:25 a.m.
I'm 29 and in our first pregnancy, we found out at week 11 that the baby had no heartbeat. We later found out through ultrasound it stopped developing probably at week 6, but I had no symptoms of miscarriage. I'm nearly 12 weeks and still have no spotting/cramping, etc. I want to start bleeding and get through this. For 2 months I'd check my underwear every time I went to the bathroom, praying for no blood. Now I pray for blood. I wonder when my body will recognize the baby is not there. My husband and I are devastated. I always used to think how sorry I felt for those women who miscarried, especially on their first pregnancy since they don't have a child to prove they can actually sustain a pregnancy. I now feel like I've been putting on a charade for the past 5 weeks. I still have a few pregnancy symptoms. I don't want to be around pregnant women, especially a family member who is due around my due date. I know the loss is probably for the best, and my husband and I want to try again in a couple months...but I don't know how I can get excited in the next pregnancy. This is so cruel. I'm so thankful to hear other people's stories and know that I'm not alone, and that I will probably have a healthy baby...someday. We got pregnant after 2 months and I thought to myself, It can't be this easy. And it wasn't.
- Julie
September 7, 2008 12:05 a.m.
Hey to all. So very sorry to read about each and everyone of your losses. I too suffered a miscarriage in June. It was very devistating, we had been trying to get pregnant for 4 years. I was so excited when it finally happened. Started spotting the day after I took a positive pregnancy test and continued spotting (lightly) for 6 weeks. At 9 weeks had an ultrasound and found an empty gestational sac. My HCG levels were still high. I was so confused, my heart was so broken. Had to have medication to have miscarriage. I, like many of you felt so sad. People have no idea how emotionally wrenching going through this is unless they have been through it themself. Know that you all are not alone, their are people who know how you feel and exactly what you are going through. Don't lose your faith in God. His plans are perfect and He will give us strength to endure. I am praying for all of you. God bless all our angels in heaven. He has a rocking chair for each one. :)
- Kim
September 3, 2008 12:44 p.m.
I had ectopic pregnancy in June,three days before my 34th birthday. I was about 5weeks. My husband and I have been trying for two years now.We were so happy and excited, but 24hrs later I have to had laparoscopy surgery with my left tube being removed, where the fetus has implanted. I was in shock! The first 4weeks was unbearable. My mood was down. I felt so sad and bad that this happen to us.I tried to tell myself that thing happen for reason.We wanted to have children so bad.I am scare about our future ability to conceive with just one tube left.My husband has been so supportive and he promise us that we will get pregancy again. I hope he right about that.I always feel confident about a lot of things but went come to be able to conceive a child am not so sure about that not with just one tube. I am so glad to be able to read about other's stories and know that am not alone. Thank you so much for sharing your stories. SL
- SL
September 3, 2008 7:50 a.m.
I am 40 and I had a miscarraige three weeks ago but still mourne the loss of my baby. This baby was unplanned but not unwanted. Although I was very upset in the beginning when I found out that I was pregnant, I knew from the beginning that I wanted to protect my baby. My womb feel empty and my heart aches. I feel guilty when I look at my two wonderful children who are 11 and 16. I feel guilty that I wanted this baby so much despite the fact that I am blessed with a wonderful husband and children. At the moment I feel that I want to try again but I know my husband don't want to. I am scared that he will have a vasectomy without my knowledge. I know that getting another baby will never replace the one that I have lost but I was looking forward to enjoying this gift of God. Niqua
- Niqua
August 31, 2008 2:54 p.m.
I am 26 years old, and I already had 2 miscarriages in the last year.. I have no children. I was told by my doctor that I should do a TORCH Test, which I did, the results were good, negative for all the viruses, except that CMV reoccuring may be possible since the resurlts showed that I had the Herpes Simplex Virus sometimes in the past, and the CMV can couse miscarriages. I was not aware that the frequent cold sores could be the couse of my misccariages. I have focused on getting my immune system back on track and hopefully my tird pregnancy will not be a complicated one. The pain od loosing a baby is something that cannot be described, my heart goes out to all the women who have gone throught what I have. I pray to God that he blesses me with my baby soon.
- Aida
August 30, 2008 12:23 a.m.
hi- just found this site two days after I lost my baby- it was an ectopic pregnancy- and i can't find a way to stop hearing the word "pregnant" before it was cruelly one that wasn't to continue- i already have two beautiful children, both of whom are my miracles as i was told i couldn't have children- i don't have working ovaries/fallopian tubes- well, it turns out, i did- until this Thursday when they had to remove my left fallopian tube- where the baby was- they tell me it was a collection of cells- for me and my husband, in the short time we had to believe we were to be parents to another baby, these cells were to be born in April 2009, had a name, had given us excitement and dreams- this was our baby. And now there won't be any more- I am over 40, now with no working bits- but i was pregnant- it was my third- I can remember that- and my heart goes out to all women who have this pain. This writing feels all disjointed- like me.
- kay
August 29, 2008 1:50 p.m.
It is nice to know I am not alone I have a beautiful 2 year old son. But we have had three miscarriages this year. I am 27 year old and it seems like all of my friends are having babies. I am tired of being asked when we are going to have another, and to those I have told I get the response well, at least you have one you shouldn't dwell on the miscarriages. Easier said then done. I watch my son with his baby cousin, and think he'll be a great big brother, and while many siblings are much farther in age, I ache to think with each miscarriage the gap between my children is growing larger. I can't seem to get over the losses, and am afraid to try again, but desparately want more children,
- annie
August 28, 2008 2:25 p.m.
Thanks for sharing your stories.It helps us to know that we are not alone but there are many others who are going through this phase.I had miscarriage last week.I started having bleeding without pain at 1.00 a.m.we went to hospital.Doctor told after examining that miscariage has started.The moment i heard these words , was very heart breaking.It seemed as if everything is finished.Unforgetable momment ! A great emotional setback as it was wanted and first pregnancy. Sometimes feeling of anger,sometimes feeling of guilt ,sometimes feeling of hopelessness comes.We dont know when god will give us a baby.At this time i start accepting this grief.I dont think about this.God has given us strength to bear this pain.When things are not in your hand, leave upon God.May god bless everyone and don't let anybody feel this pain.
- No name given
August 26, 2008 9:00 p.m.
Thank for sharing your stories. I don't feel alone anymore in my anger, saddness & frustration that no one else can seem to understand. I can't seem to stop crying but I do feel my tears are deserved and justified. I have lost two babies in the past year & I have been an emotional wreak ever since. My family thinks that I need to get over it and move on but I just can't seem to get past the loss. I was 8 weeks with my first & had a miscarriage which was very painful both physically & emotionally. After a few months we decided to try again with our doctors support & encouragement. When we found out we were expecting again, I held my breath until we made it past that dreadful 8 week mark. At my 12 week ultra sound my doctor discovered that the baby had no heartbeat. My doctor scheduled a D&C for two days later. I didn't want to know details & my doctor requested that we send the baby in to see if they could detemine the cause, of course they couldn't. We are very blessed to have our 4 year old son & he keeps me going but I do feel very cheated & I will never forget my babies that I lost. My 4 year son keeps asking me when is he going to have a baby brother or sister? My son has 7 cousins & another on the way, of which I was told I was going to help give a baby shower this Oct 4th which my due date would have been Oct 1st. Time will ease our pain but it will never fill in that missing piece that will always and forever belong to our babies
- Jessica
August 24, 2008 1:08 a.m.
I read some of the comments, and saw one from someone who said they did not know how their husband felt - for me, it's heartwrenching. My fiance was 6 weeks pregnant, and she suddenly got cramps and spotting earlier. After a trip to the ER, we found out that she had miscarried. I had already started imagining what the baby would like like, his/her beautiful eyes looking at me. This morning, I suggested that we go to Baby's-r-us tonight and pick things out... and now tonight we are no longer having a baby. And it's killing me not to be able to talk about it with her, because I know it has been so hard on her. I feel so guilty, like it's my fault - if I had taken better care of her, had her rest more. I feel a horrible sense of loss, and I wasn't the one carrying the baby - my heart goes out to all of you, as I know you have an even greater sense of loss. I wouldn't wish these feelings on anyone. Take care.
- Adam
August 21, 2008 2:17 a.m.
Two days ago, I was in the hospital delivering my dead baby boy. I have never been this devastated. I'm reading all these stories about these horrible miscarriages and my heart is broken. I pray for all of you who are feeling what I'm feeling. I am trying to cope with the memory of my doctor telling me there was no heartbeat, with the memory of calling my husband at work to tell him I lost the baby. I'm trying to push out of my mind the memory of my 2.6 oz. son who died at 15 weeks laying in a tiny bowl the doctor placed him in. I'm trying to not be so bitter toward every pregnant woman I see and envy them because I was wheeled out of the hospital empty handed. My son will be cremated and put in a tiny urn the size of a shot glass. I never got to know him, I will always wonder what he would've looked like. My living son turns 3 tomorrow and I'm so sad that I couldn't give him a sibling like we planned. I am scared to try to get pregnant again. I don't think I could deal with another miscarriage if this happened again. The only thing I know to do is pray and ask God to help me and my husband through this. That, and hug and kiss my 3 year old as much as I can all day long. I thank God for him. He helps me to get up in the morning when I don't want to. Thank you to all of you who share your stories. You make this hell a little more bearable. God bless you all.
- Tiffany
August 17, 2008 8:53 p.m.
I found out that I miscarried two days ago after my second trimester quad screen came back abnormal. I was supposed to be 16 weeks yesterday. According to measurements, the baby only lived until 13 weeks; my baby had been dead inside my uterus for 3 weeks. I remember my 12 week ultrasound--the baby looked so healthy. It had legs, arms, fingers, toes, a beautiful spinal cord, etc. It was moving around so much the tech had trouble taking the measurements. I heard a vibrant heartbeat. During the ultrasound I had this past Friday, the baby wasn't moving at all. It was all curled up in a little ball, with no heartbeat. I desperately miss my baby. My stomach has returned so quickly to flat as if my body has no remorse. This pregnancy was unplanned and I am a single woman. Trying again for me is not an immediate option. The child's father is probably happy about the miscarriage as he asked me to have an abortion. I feel all alone in my grief. I want my baby to come back to me.
- Inger
August 17, 2008 2:51 p.m.
hi again. I posted in mid June, after having a "missed miscarriage" diagnosed on June 10th, when I should have been 12 weeks pregnant with twins. I had a D&C on June 12, and now, 9 weeks later, my period still hasn't come back. The chromosonal tests came back this week and we found out that our twins were chromosonally normal and that we had one boy and one girl. It's good that they were "normal," but it raises all the old questions again about why we lost them if that was the case. My OB says that they probably had an organ that wasn't developing properly, but both of them? at the same time? what are the odds of that? The not knowing is so incredibly difficlt, and waiting for my period is driving me crazy. We tried for about 1.5 years to get pregnant in the first place, and it's killing me to see the months tick by and not be able to try again yet. I miss my babies everyday, and like a lot of people have said, I feel like very few people understand this. My babies were due at Christmas. Each week that goes by I think about how big they should be by now. THis whole thing continues to be heartbreaking and I find it hard to be optimistic. My husband and I want children so badly.
- Alli
August 16, 2008 11:32 p.m.
Thank you all for sharing your stories and to this site for the article. It gives me comfort ot know that I am not alone in my struggle. I miscarried 3 weeks ago at 7 weeks. I keep telling myself that it it wasn't meant to be but it still takes my breath away when I think of where he/she would be right now or when I see other women pregnant. I loved every minute of the pregnancy down to the 30th trip to the bathroom. Everyone keeps saying the hardest part is to conceive but it really doesn't numb any of the pain. We hope to try again after my first cycle. Thank you for reading--it has been therapeutic.
- Gina
August 14, 2008 12:13 p.m.
Its relieving to hear that I’m not the only one who feels cheated. In July I found out that I was pregnant but a few days later started having sharp pains, when I went to the dr. I learned that I was four weeks pregnant, but that it was ectopic so they needed to give me a shot to absorb the pregnancy. A week later I went in for a check up at a different hospital to make sure my hormone levels were coming down but they were going up instead. The dr. there did ANOTHER ultrasound and reported, regrettable, that I had in fact had a viable pregnancy to begin with but since i had already been given the shot that I would be having a miscarriage. That was a little less then a month ago and the miscarriage process hasn’t even began so now by Friday I have to decide to either use pills to speed up the process or get a D&C. I feel SO cheated; I feel like if I had ignored the pain in the first place everything would have been fine. I'm only 20, I wasn’t planning on a child-even saying that I lost a baby feels like I’m lying to myself and being overly dramatic-I don’t even know how to feel or grieve or anything-i just keep crying, I just want it to be over, in the past month i have experienced every bad thing that can happen during a pregnancy, i dont understand how something like this could happen. Ive been angry lately, and especially bitter toward pregnant women. Im just lost and so overwhelmed that i dont know what to do...
- Raven
161 comments posted